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Post by Brownie on Mar 25, 2023 21:00:27 GMT -5
how does one outline ;-; Like I don't want to have NO plan. but I also have no plan. do you want actual suggestions or just venting? just checking if you have any advice I'm willing to hear it ;-; I've been staring at a blank wall for a few days now and I'm trying really hard to puzzle things out but it's just. No inspiration no nothing. I usually can get a few character concepts or at least a really cool scene to base everything around, but I don't even have that yet. The only thing I KNOW I need to do is have two foil characters that come from the same place (young, injured from working) and choose different paths (one an angry vigilante anti-hero trope; the other a hopeful organizer of protest centered on helping people recover). But idk how exactly that needs to happen without being the most cliche thing ever, and I have no character ideas to fit those tropes, or how to move them along :/
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Post by 𝕊’𝕞𝕠𝕣𝕖 on Mar 25, 2023 21:27:42 GMT -5
So for outlining, I personally find it helpful to start first by just writing down everything you know needs to happen, then try to sort out "okay well this happens before this" and so on and so forth I also think its important to have an outline but except you may end up redoing that outline multiple times as the story progresses (I know I have with my stories)
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Mar 25, 2023 22:52:41 GMT -5
But idk how exactly that needs to happen without being the most cliche thing ever, and I have no character ideas to fit those tropes, or how to move them along :/ Tbh, I wouldn't really worry about sounding cliché if I were you. Something I've learned is that if you worry about what's been done before, then you're never going to get anything done. Literature has been around for thousands of years, after all. All that really matters is the execution and all tropes have subversions. Maybe try something like that. Speaking of, have you tried going through TV Tropes for some inspiration?
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Post by Brownie on Mar 25, 2023 22:53:17 GMT -5
I'd be surprised if my outline didn't change a lot for a project this ambitious lmao
Maybe I should just throw something down and not worry about how cliche the parts are at first, and maybe something better will come in the moment.
Also like, picking character names. How do yall deal with this???
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Mar 25, 2023 23:02:46 GMT -5
Baby naming sites. No seriously, I just browse through Behind the Name and see what sticks. If I want something a little more literal in a certain language, I go to Glosbe to check out the meaning. For more fantastical names, to paraphrase this one Tumblr post, just play around with a common one a bit by either removing or adding certain letters to that name until you're satisfied, so something like Tim can become Timarimos.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Mar 25, 2023 23:10:55 GMT -5
I can write out some outlining suggestions tomorrow when I have access to a computer.
Where are you starting from? Like do you have a really vague plot idea, just the beginning, only an ending, plot archetype, etc?
Also yeah choosing names is hard. Whatever you do, do NOT use placeholder names because you WILL get attached to them even if they don’t fit the character or worldbuilding, and then you’ll try in vain to find a “better” name that sounds really close/gives similar vibes but ultimately will not stick.
Honestly though, it’s whatever sounds right to me. Sometimes I use actual extant names since the worldbuilding is Slavic inspired, other names I just make up. It can take a lot of tried to get right. I agonized over Josef’s name for ages (my brain arbitrarily decided he MUST have a name starting with J…).
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Post by Hollyfall on Mar 25, 2023 23:45:05 GMT -5
Baby naming sites work wonders for me like mothflight said, but what I also like to do is search up names that align with the character's personality or, in the case of my sci-fi and fantasy worlds, what aligns with whatever culture I stole from was inspired by and either use preexisting names or make up my own that are inspired by them so they at least make sense in the setting.
But at the end of the day, it's whatever you think fits them best.
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Post by Brownie on Mar 26, 2023 1:48:40 GMT -5
mmmm the fantasy name generator site is also a godsend but sometimes I just browse through for hours and nothing quite sticks. I also tend to favor monosyllabic names and I don't want that! But my brain is like. Names more than 5 letters take too long to type, can't have that. I def do the method of keysmashing syllables together (from whatever acceptable sounds of the relevant conlang/base language) and taking chunks I like </3 Tho that's one of those things that I have to then put those sounds back into google translate so that I don't accedentally use a word that already has a meaning in another commonly spoken language (or at least, nothing rude haha) Saint Ambrosef I have my broad character archetypes and a basic worldbuild along with a general premise and conflict (on a community and somewhat national level). It's also pretty firmly a statement piece about morality, so I gotta ensure that my commentary is filtered through that lens (which I like to keep in mind when outlining so that I don't end up writing a different story than I intended, so to speak; I don't want my characters wandering off). What I'm really struggling with is finding character motives that fit their arcs and archetypes, and generally where to start things off. I have a vague idea of the first scene, and a few ideas of perhaps what might force the characters into taking action instead of being passive observers, but I'm strugging with having too many potential lines and not knowing which ones to choose. So just. General outline process. It would be great to hear what yall's process is, maybe give me some ideas on how to be more productive or a new angle to come at my problems.
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Post by Brownie on Mar 26, 2023 2:00:07 GMT -5
fklfasdkl;fj;dajf;lad
I DID IT. I think talking about outline here gave me the moment of clarity to see the path I need to take. NOW is it great? NO but it is SOMETHING and I can work with that. <3<3<3
I just had a ten minute mad scientist flowchart explosion all over that blank whiteboard and it was WONDERFUL
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Post by 𝕊’𝕞𝕠𝕣𝕖 on Mar 26, 2023 2:43:43 GMT -5
Dude, I love that when that happens! I need to start outlining the next phase of my book, but yeesh, its a big project and I have admittedly, been putting it off
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Post by valleylight on Mar 26, 2023 15:23:26 GMT -5
I was wondering, do you all enjoy writing short fiction as well? If so, does your writing/outlining process for short stories differ from your longer form, chaptered work?
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#f0a9e4
Name Colour
Captain Americat
"Don't frown, someone could be falling in love with your smile." - Teen Wolf
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Post by Captain Americat on Mar 26, 2023 15:44:14 GMT -5
Also like, picking character names. How do yall deal with this??? wait. picking names is my favorite. and i fall so hard in love with names, omsc. often times i'll come up with a name or think of a name and then the story afterwards, haha. names have never really been hard for me XD
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Post by Brownie on Mar 26, 2023 15:46:40 GMT -5
Also like, picking character names. How do yall deal with this??? wait. picking names is my favorite. and i fall so hard in love with names, omsc. often times i'll come up with a name or think of a name and then the story afterwards, haha. names have never really been hard for me XD Luckyyyy ;-; I have a few times where the name came first, but that's usually with unplanned blurbs or roleplay rather than for a plot. Maybe that's why I stuck to warriors fanfiction for so long; the naming conventions make it easy to make new characters quickly lmaooo
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#f0a9e4
Name Colour
Captain Americat
"Don't frown, someone could be falling in love with your smile." - Teen Wolf
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Post by Captain Americat on Mar 26, 2023 15:48:54 GMT -5
For outlining... I guess mine is more of just messy notes, which I really need to organize XD Like, I know what's going to happen here, here, and here. But the in between bits I let my characters figure out. Like, most of my best scenes were not planned, and honestly I wonder how I even got to those points somehow, but it's great XD One thing I'm having trouble with right now is I know exactly what point I'm at & where I need to go (it's literally been mapped out forever) but I had little notes scattered everywhere and I'm worried I'll miss bits. So now I have to go back and find all my notes. But my notes are organized based on when I had the thought and not on where they belong in chronological order, omsc. So the "note-finding" is really daunting for me right now and causing me to stop in my tracks XD
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Post by Brownie on Mar 26, 2023 15:51:40 GMT -5
I was wondering, do you all enjoy writing short fiction as well? If so, does your writing/outlining process for short stories differ from your longer form, chaptered work? I suck at short fiction I'm just very long winded haha I tend to rely more on editing and rewrites though, because it's easier to take risks, since the rewrite would often not take too long if I hate the way it came out the first time. Since short story has to be a lot "tighter" (stronger characters to make up for the lack of time getting to know them; stronger words to make the images more powerful in a short space; stronger plot to give it the same impact as a 50k buildup) I focus a lot on the editing phase and not so much on the drafting. Usually because it's only one or two scenes, so planning logical steps between actions isn't very important, since there's no long-term plan to mess up.
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#f0a9e4
Name Colour
Captain Americat
"Don't frown, someone could be falling in love with your smile." - Teen Wolf
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Post by Captain Americat on Mar 26, 2023 15:51:41 GMT -5
brownie; I honestly wrote with warriors first because writing from the POV of a cat was somehow easier and more natural for me? XD For some reason, writing from the POV of a human was hard? XDD Maybe it's because of all the warriors roleplaying, haha. But then one day I decided to try my hand at humans again, and, well, now that's what I mostly write
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Post by Brownie on Mar 26, 2023 15:52:35 GMT -5
For outlining... I guess mine is more of just messy notes, which I really need to organize XD Like, I know what's going to happen here, here, and here. But the in between bits I let my characters figure out. Like, most of my best scenes were not planned, and honestly I wonder how I even got to those points somehow, but it's great XD One thing I'm having trouble with right now is I know exactly what point I'm at & where I need to go (it's literally been mapped out forever) but I had little notes scattered everywhere and I'm worried I'll miss bits. So now I have to go back and find all my notes. But my notes are organized based on when I had the thought and not on where they belong in chronological order, omsc. So the "note-finding" is really daunting for me right now and causing me to stop in my tracks XD Just go do it!! It won't take more than 30 minutes and then you can get to the good stuff I promise
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#f0a9e4
Name Colour
Captain Americat
"Don't frown, someone could be falling in love with your smile." - Teen Wolf
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Post by Captain Americat on Mar 26, 2023 15:53:38 GMT -5
I was wondering, do you all enjoy writing short fiction as well? If so, does your writing/outlining process for short stories differ from your longer form, chaptered work? Oaah! I love writing short stories!! I never plan them, haha. Honestly, whatever happens happens in those, whoops. Usually I'll be like, okay this is what I need to accomplish and then I just start writing. No planning. But sometimes I'll have notes that I thought of (like character interactions or something) and kind of work around that and let that guide me.
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#f0a9e4
Name Colour
Captain Americat
"Don't frown, someone could be falling in love with your smile." - Teen Wolf
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Post by Captain Americat on Mar 26, 2023 15:55:41 GMT -5
brownie; thank you for the encouragement! I really gotta just do it, omsc. On my next day off when I'm (hopefully) not tired XD
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Post by Brownie on Mar 26, 2023 18:18:10 GMT -5
also it's getting to be my favorite way of worldbuilding and developing characters: doing short roleplay-esque posts, cycling through character POVs and making up new ones along the way, just doing slice of life things in a new place. Works extremely well on a busy city street, where characters are having short interactions with each other, with merchants, getting pickpocketed, ect. Just bounce a back and forth roleplay between them and see what kind of people inhabit the place, where people like to go to eat, what's the dangerous side of town, different factions and politics... really nice for all yall that like to make it up as you go. Gives a solid base for any planned worldbuilding in the area.
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Aroace
ᦓρ꠸ᥴꫀᠻꪖꪀᧁ
“Do you remember…the 21st night of September?”
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Post by ᦓρ꠸ᥴꫀᠻꪖꪀᧁ on Mar 26, 2023 19:33:24 GMT -5
I was wondering, do you all enjoy writing short fiction as well? If so, does your writing/outlining process for short stories differ from your longer form, chaptered work? I have lots of trouble writing short fiction. I just have to much to include in my stories, and when I write short fiction it all just seems so rushed.
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Post by 𝕊’𝕞𝕠𝕣𝕖 on Mar 26, 2023 19:56:05 GMT -5
I was wondering, do you all enjoy writing short fiction as well? If so, does your writing/outlining process for short stories differ from your longer form, chaptered work? I typically only write longer stories, but when I have written short stories, I don't usually do the same outlining process tbh
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Mar 26, 2023 21:52:37 GMT -5
Since it's related to the topic of outlining, Evernote is a great tool that some of y'all might find helpful. It's a note keeping website (or app).
I get loads of random little ideas for my stories that I know I'll want to incorporate somewhere in the future, and I use different note tabs on Evernote to keep track of them all. I've got separate tabs for settings, individual characters, quotes, culture, meta themes, etc. It's a nicely organized dumping ground.
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Post by valleylight on Mar 27, 2023 11:42:02 GMT -5
I suck at short fiction I'm just very long winded haha I tend to rely more on editing and rewrites though, because it's easier to take risks, since the rewrite would often not take too long if I hate the way it came out the first time. Since short story has to be a lot "tighter" (stronger characters to make up for the lack of time getting to know them; stronger words to make the images more powerful in a short space; stronger plot to give it the same impact as a 50k buildup) I focus a lot on the editing phase and not so much on the drafting. Usually because it's only one or two scenes, so planning logical steps between actions isn't very important, since there's no long-term plan to mess up. I've never thought about the process in these terms before. It's so accurate-- once the drafting's done, I'll spend a lot of time editing and parsing every little detail in my short stories to try and make every word count. I think I struggle writing chapter stories because it's hard for me to drop that mindset, so I end up giving myself less leeway to let the story grow from chapter to chapter. I end up viewing each chapter in isolation, and I get burnt out quickly. Maybe if I can change that mindset, I can be more productive and enjoy writing longer stories more? Like, focus on drafting the whole story first, from beginning to end, and then go back and dive into the fine tuning. It makes so much sense, but it's honestly never occurred to me before! Oaah! I love writing short stories!! I never plan them, haha. Honestly, whatever happens happens in those, whoops. Usually I'll be like, okay this is what I need to accomplish and then I just start writing. No planning. But sometimes I'll have notes that I thought of (like character interactions or something) and kind of work around that and let that guide me. I'm the same way! Usually I just have a few character/plot notes before I start writing, unless it's a topic I have to do a lot of research for upfront. I love the way short stories sort of shape themselves into being as you write them, just with an idea or end-goal to go off. I'm always surprised by where the characters/narrative take me! Do you like writing short stories of any particular genre?
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Post by Brownie on Mar 27, 2023 13:02:43 GMT -5
glad I could give a new perspective! I had to do a lot of short stories for workshops and classes so I def know HOW to do them, even if I don't prefer it.
I do like the method of taking whatever concept and writing two or three very different styles, interpretations, POV characters even, maybe change the ending or the premise on one. Just variations that could still work, but have different vibes. Then you can pick and choose which aspects of which are strongest to get the intended message across (imo every short story should be a social commentary or critique the human condition; that's what makes them relatable) and so isolating that idea and figuring out which aspects of which drafts best encapulates that message is the key to the editing phase. Then it's just combing through and fitting everything together in a satisfying way.
And yeah, unfortunately perfectionism has no place in longform. It's just too much. I do have two things of advice:
first, if you know you get stuck when the plot loses direction, do spend most of your time making some detailed outlines. But not TOO detailed, otherwise you'll spend all your time here and procrastinate the actual writing lmao. I tend to prefer thinking about the beginning and ending scenes first, then finding logical steps to get from A to B to place in the middle. Have a lot of options for sidequests and obsticles planned, like lining up a bunch of different sized screwdrivers, that way you'll have the perfect one ready when you get stuck and need ideas in those rough middle patches.
second, once you start writing, make a rule for yourself: you are NOT ALLOWED to go back. Not even if you skipped a scene and you want to put it where it belongs chronologically. NOPE. you put that sucker on the next blank page, write out of order. The only page you're allowed to look at is the outline and the last page of the draft doc. No scrolling backwards, no rereading (maybe the last few paragraphs to get you into the zone if that helps, but NO EDITING those words) and you're only allowed to work on blank pages until the first draft is done. and don't dither over word choice or dialogue, if you don't think of something in the moment, it's totally acceptable to do an in line author comment and go back to it later when you have the time to do better:
//character A and Character B have a deep conversation about x and y (I preface my skips and inline comments with // for things I want to go back to or rework and --- for scenes or dialogue I skipped entirely so that I can easily do a search to toggle between them in the editing phase and work on them first)
It'll be a hard change to accept at first, but once you really do internalize it and keep pushing forward, it should start to feel like second nature to write out of order. I do keep separate notes underneath my outline for things I figure out that I want to change or add to the previous work while working on later bits, but I don't allow myself to make those changes until after that draft (or that arc) is fully written out.
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Post by valleylight on Mar 27, 2023 14:15:00 GMT -5
Brownie The no going back rule makes so much sense, I have to give that a try next time I start on a longer project! I never really had instruction in long-form fiction, only short stories and verse. So I've always been baffled by how professional novelists write so well so quickly. I don't know why it never occurred to me that the process for book-writing could be different from short-form, that it would have its own discipline and science to it. Thanks for the insight and tips, I really appreciate it! c:
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#f0a9e4
Name Colour
Captain Americat
"Don't frown, someone could be falling in love with your smile." - Teen Wolf
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Post by Captain Americat on Mar 27, 2023 16:44:37 GMT -5
also it's getting to be my favorite way of worldbuilding and developing characters: doing short roleplay-esque posts, cycling through character POVs and making up new ones along the way, just doing slice of life things in a new place. Works extremely well on a busy city street, where characters are having short interactions with each other, with merchants, getting pickpocketed, ect. Just bounce a back and forth roleplay between them and see what kind of people inhabit the place, where people like to go to eat, what's the dangerous side of town, different factions and politics... really nice for all yall that like to make it up as you go. Gives a solid base for any planned worldbuilding in the area. See, this is also where writing my short stories also helps. World building and character building.
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#f0a9e4
Name Colour
Captain Americat
"Don't frown, someone could be falling in love with your smile." - Teen Wolf
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Post by Captain Americat on Mar 27, 2023 16:48:13 GMT -5
Do you like writing short stories of any particular genre? Not particularly because at the moment I've been using my short stories as a way to develop my story more. But, I will say that the most short stories I have written are probably historical fiction XD Historical fiction is one of my favorite genres to write, in general, despite it not being what I'm working on currently.
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